Instrument design pioneer Roger Linn (LinnDrum, MCP, LinnStrument) shared his thoughts over the weekend on the Behringer LmDrum – a new drum machine that copies the look, logo and, according to Linn, the copyrighted samples of the classic LinnDrum.
While the LmDrum may look like a straight knockoff of the LinnDrum, it’s essentially a sampling sequencer, where the LinnDrum is a sample-based drum machine.
Linn calls the Behringer LmDrum ‘confusing and difficult to use’, and questions the ethics of Behringer copying the LinnDrum’s samples without permission:
“Uli Behringer kindly sent me an LmDrum in August of 2024, giving me a chance to try it out.
What do I think? I think it’s a bit of a head-scratcher. It is clearly intended to evoke my 1982 “LinnDrum” drum machine, borrowing its visual style, control layout, colors and logo style, as well as copying its sounds and those of my LM-1 and Linn9000 drum machines. I took it apart and it even copies much of my LinnDrum sound generation circuit, even my bad ideas like the inability to tune any drums except the snare, toms and congas.
However, it uses an entirely different operating system and user interface, one that is based on earlier Behinger drum machines. Personally, I found it somewhat confusing and difficult to use, though I was given an unfinished manual. I’d imagine they will improve both the software and manual over time. I suspect the designers found it difficult to find a balance between 1) the impression of a LinnDrum clone, and 2) the addition of modern features, given that the 1982 LinnDrum’s feature set is woefully inadequate by today’s standards.
It’s worth noting that Uli never asked my permission to either copy my visual design or my drum sounds. Though in 2020, he did kindly invite me to collaborate on a future drum machine, and I respectfully declined because of concern about Behringer’s past business ethics and legal practices.
How do I feel about the LmDrum? My feelings are mixed. On the one hand, it’s not unusual for companies to borrow ideas from older products in order to inspire a new and innovative design, which I’ve done in past. Plus, my old drum sounds are all over the web, controlling copying is difficult, and I don’t enjoy legal stuff so I’ve generally ignored the issue so far. Also, the value in those old sounds is probably due more to Art Wood (the drummer who played the sounds, and my friend of many years), and to artists like Prince, Michael Jackson, and others, who made those sounds famous on their hits. Finally, I must admit that I’ve never cared much about the past, because I find the future far more exciting.
On the other hand, even if we discount the copying of the visual design, logo style and sound circuit of LinnDrum, the LmDrum copies my sounds. So I’d have preferred for Uli to ask my permission.
Even if he thinks it is legal, I question whether it is ethical.”
See Linn’s site for his full comments.
Roger Linn has been one of the most influential electronic instrument designers for over 40 years. He kickstarted modern drum machines with the LinnDrum, he created the genre-defining Music Production Center (MPC) and his most recent instrument, the LinnStrument, has been seminal in the creation of the MIDI Polyphonic Expression (MPE) standard.
Linn has also been a balanced critic of new gear that builds on his designs. Notably, he called out AKAI and its owners, years ago, when they put out derivative MPCs and refused to pay him his royalties, but more recently had very positive things to say about the latest generation of MPCs.
His comments on the LmDrum seem pretty fair. He highlights the instrument’s affordability and notes that it expands a lot on the original LinnDrum feature set, which he calls “woefully inadequate by today’s standards.” But he also notes that Behringer appears to have copied the copyrighted samples of the LinnDrum, without permission.
Behringer has previously stated that their core business model is essentially to copy other company’s designs, to the extent that is legally possible. They describe their strategy as being a ‘Market Follower”:
Market Follower: A market follower seeks to gain market share but is less interested in differentiating its brand from the market leader. Instead, the market follower effectively rides on the market leader’s coattails while positioning its brand just far enough away from the market leader to be different. A great example is any young adult novel that’s marketed as “the next Harry Potter.”
In this case, Behringer appears to be pushing the legal envelope by using the LinnDrum’s copyrighted samples. But Linn’s comments make clear that, while he sees Behringer’s actions as unethical, he’s not that interested legal battles or nostalgia for old designs – he’d rather be designing the future.
What do you think of Linn’s take on the Behringer LmDrum? Share your thoughts in the comments!
What a legend!
Fair play.
I’ve been watching Behringer since they teased a Jupiter 8 Clone over 5 years ago ! In all that time I had no idea Behringer was going to do what they did by copying all the gear they have done so far, It’s crazy ! I thought Cloning a Roland Jupiter was like a strike back at the empire for not reproducing one themselves. Then they went after Oberheim & Linn Drum products who are not Corporations like Roland and Still the Jupiter Clone is a pie in the sky.
Oberheim was quite literally saved by Music Tribe (owner of Behringer brand):
https://oberheim.com/news/worldwide-rights-to-oberheim-trademark-returned-to-its-founder/
Please stop making everything into a dramatic superhero good vs evil fight.
They only returned the rights because they couldn’t legally use them in Europe.
Let’s not pretend like it was normal in any way or form for Behringer to trade mark Tom’s name which in no way belonged to them. Giving ‘back’ something you stole isn’t a nice gesture, stop spreading misinformation.
Behringer had no right to Tom’s name in any legal way and trademarked it anyway, without consent from the actual rights holder at the time nor Tom himself.
Behringer gave up on trademarking ‘Oberheim’ after the US trademark rejected their application:
https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2021/03/05/behringer-oberheim-trademark-registration-refused-because-it-falsely-suggests-a-connection-with-tom-oberheim/
Behringer’s original intent was to release their Oberheim knockoffs under the ‘Oberheim’ name, against Tom Oberheim’s wishes. It was only the trademark office’s rejection of Behringer’s request that paved the way for Tom Oberheim to get his company name back.
Tom Oberheim, like Roger Linn, publicly took the high road, because they are both class acts.
Why not create something original on their own? I believe the reason they can sell gear so inexpensively, is because of their copying other gear practices. Saves on R & D and marketing.
Beh and Uli
Would it have been so difficult to make sure a % gross from every sale goes towards Roger Linn.
Thereby having Roger’s signature on every unit which would increased sales profits.
Is this so difficult to grasp.
Maybe linn is keeping his options open? Linn recently tried out a modern MPC. Would be cool as hell if Akai and Linn teamed up again.
Why would Roger want his name on a product he does not endorse?
There are reasons patents has limited lifespan. It’s part of the game. Nothing unethical about it.
Your comment states a legal fact, and follows it with an ethical statement.
I think you know that law and ethics are different.
Let me give you a different example, to show the absurdity…
“People are allowed to lie. It’s part of the game. Nothing unethical about it.”
Stub, dear God, we agree. We actually agree. Legality and ethics have a gulf so far and wide that even Elon XXXX could not fill it with his lies.
XXXXXXX XXXXXXXX has followed a rather narrow path of legality to continue his unethical business practices.
I would have less of an issue had XXXXXXXX made these ‘clones, replicas, copies’ by referencing the original without the blatant copy and paste method he employs.
Admin: Personal attacks deleted (name-calling).
Synthtopia encourages readers to share all types of viewpoints, but we delete personal attacks and hate speech.
Readers should feel free to intelligently and constructively critique the actions of individuals like Elon Musk and Uli Behringer. But understand that Synthtopia will delete personal attacks on them, the same way we would delete personal attacks targeted towards you.
There are differences between a lie and a well intended law. This is also a fact.
That is exactly the point I was making.
Still, it sounds like you aren’t quite there yet.
There are lots of behaviors that are perfectly legal that are unethical. There are behaviors that are both illegal and unethical but are not often prosecuted. B-word ticks both boxes.
Sure, there are grey areas, and there are areas that are not problematic. Often, defenders of B-word will do the straw-man thing; defending him/them against attacks that are not being made, and ignoring legitimate gripes.
Why Roger’s writing on this topic is refreshing is that he understands this subject matter better than most. Better than you or me.
An admin pre-emptively censoring on behalf of Musk and Behringer is the most inane thing I’ve ever seen on a synths blog, and that is saying something.
Musk calls himself a free speech absolutist. Are you aware of this?
This marks the last day I visit Synthtopia. The stench of stupidity has become too stultifying to tolerate any longer.
Anybody that accuses an individual or business of ‘censorship’ is either confused about what censorship is or is intentionally misrepresenting it.
The first amendment protect the rights of publishers to control what they publish. That’s the part of ‘free speech’ that people with an agenda pretend doesn’t exist.
Also, while Musk may call himself a free speech absolutist, that’s not how he’s managing Twitter/X:
Account suspensions have tripled on X since Elon Musk took over
https://fortune.com/2024/09/25/twitter-x-account-suspensions-triple-transparency-report-elon-musk/
Twitter has complied at least partially with 98.8 percent of takedown requests under Elon Musk’s ownership:
https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/5/2/twitter-fulfilling-more-government-censorship-requests-under-musk
I’m really angry that Bosch copied my Hoover fridge.
Poor Mr Hoover. His feelings must be terribly hurt.
You’ve missed the point entirely. Seems like you didn’t read his piece at all.
It’s quite good. I hope you take the time.
Robin – samples aren’t protected by patents, but by copyright, which lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years.
Trademark lasts indefinitely.
Behringer’s constantly bullying their way over this stuff because their a billion dollar company with lots of lawyers, so they can do it with anybody that isn’t another billion dollar company with lawyers.
When the author never made legal action against the copying of his samples, which he admits he didn’t do, I think there’s a legal base to claim that the samples are free to be used, but IANA.
Beh is a Chinese knock-off company, except instead of making selfie sticks and USB hubs, they’ve focused on the music technology industry.
Linn’s take was probably the most measured and reasonable I’ve heard about Behringer’s practices.
I had the opportunity to meet Roger Linn a couple of times at the NAMM Show, and he’s as gracious and intelligent in person as you could imagine.
He gave me a great tour of the LinnStrument, and came across as a brilliant guy who’s passionate about making music with expression.
His comments on Uli and the LmDrum seem very tactful, given the circumstances.
Behringer put Linn into a no-win situation. Linn can either spend a bunch of of money on lawyers – for which he get condemned by Behringer fans as being a ‘gate-keeper’, or he can grin and bear it while Behringer steamrolls over his rights.
Make sure you click through and read Linn’s full post at his site. One of the things that he talks about is not understanding the current nostalgia trend in electronic instruments, which I totally agree with.
People will line up to spend $400 on the LmDrum, because of nostalgia and styling, ignoring the fact that there are instruments like the Model Samples that can run circles around it, and cost a lot less, too.
Roger Linn manage to promote musical creativity while taking a moral highstand in a world driven by money and regurgitations of other peoples products and music. Never met the guy but I like him for these reasons. And yes, I’m in the possession of a couple of Behringer products – the 808, 303 and the MS-5. Staple sounds I could never afford otherwise due to the collectors market.
Roger Linn 2028. I’m early voting.
“Law” and “ethics” are almost at opposite ends of the stick these days. If Roger says its “confusing and difficult,” it probably is. I can’t see debating it much. To each their own. I prefer to focus on sound, including the mass of percussion samples I have in Logic. That’s more appealing to me than sweating over several boxes.
If you prefer the hardware approach, the field is almost stupid-varied, from high to really low. I’m not surprised that Uli didn’t license the sound set. There will always be a market for cheap goods, as well as one for those of us who have learned to save a bit longer and buy more upscale. It pays off better in the long run.
See? I’ve been saying this forever and each time I get people incredulous at how I can even comment about ethics.
I think Roger had several opportunities over the years to give person’s a new modern Linn drum and we the buying public were left waiting He eventually said that he would not replicate previous work and had moved on to new concepts if performing music hence the Linstrument.The original concept of drum machines was perfect with the ability to drum in your own patterns and have the assistance of swing quantization etc .It would have been enough for most person’s to get midi sampling and large sound library chips added over the years with automatic fills and larger screens but mist companies fell by the wayside.
I therefore applaud Behringer on brining this back and at a price affordable to the general population.
Hope Roger does not block the sales I hope to get one of these and the DMX clone when it comes
He couldn’t block the sales even if he tried. Anyways, I hope Akai and Linn team up and make a modern MPC that isn’t touchscreen-based!
He does want to make a new drum maschine, so what’s the issue
No worries, there is no issue. Linn just thinks because he holds copyright over the Linndrum samples UB should’ve asked him for permission at least.
Expecting that kind of courtesy is just ridiculous; it’s like e.g. pro musicians expecting to be paid royalties because their music gets airplay and reissued in physical formats. I mean, especially when they are retired, seriously, they’re not gonna make new music anyway, so what’s the issue? Unbelievable.
I don’t care if Linn gets paid for his life’s work, he should just make more stuff. Now instead I have to get that LameDrum. Serves him right.
@thesaurus res: You got all _that_ out of Anthony’s dodgy grammar? I thought he wanted Linn to join Native Instruments.
“rex” and no, just used the gift of sarcasm and my imagination, as i didn’t have a lot to go on. and who knows but anthony?
‘rex’ acknowledged, I didn’t catch that auto-correct ‘assist’ before hitting reply.
Your gifts of sarcasm & imagination are stronger than my powers of absurdity and taking things on the interwebs literally. Congrats!
In old mate’s absence & considering the Maschine was clearly inspired by the MPC, I’ll still vainly hold a little hope that he wants NI & Linn to collaborate.
and that’s that. time to move along to the future.
Make Drum Machines Great Again
He wants you to buy a $4500 clone instead! No thanks Mr Linn! Funny how he endorsed that one but oh no bad behringer :((
https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2023/09/01/classic-linn-lm-1-drum-machine-getting-reborn-as-luma-1/
He wants you to buy a LinnStument, not a LmDrum or a Luma, because that would actually make him money!
Linn doesn’t seem to have anything against inexpensive drum machines – he just questions the ethics of dressing it up in LinnDrum’s clothing, and illegally copying the LinnDrum’s samples. If you have a problem with that, you might be an entitled snob!
Wow, you’ve stretched reality beyond recognition. What are you even talking about?
I recommend to read the whole thing, which is beautifully worded, including the comment on GForce. And the Douglas Adams quote.
I think he’s right about the balance between a clone and modern feature set, which is already noticeable on some other Behringer releases but is presumably much more precarious on this one.
yeah, cause MAGA Adam’s is a real american hero.
John, are you perhaps thinking of Dilbert cartoonist, Scott Adams and not the Hitchhikers’ Guide To The Galaxy author, Douglas Adams, the liberal activist who passed away in 2001?
omg, thank’s. wow.
fwiw, i find after trying to watch the video that i have lost any and all interest in these types of sounds. all I can hear is Prince tunes, not that there’s anythig wrong with that,.it’s just not inspringing to me in any way.
that and I have a linndrum i don’t use for the same reason. lol.
Please explain what Douglas Adams has to do with MAGA? I don’t understand your comment at all.
(Douglas Adams was a British author who wrote The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Linn quoted from his last work, The Salmon of Doubt, with a discussion of nostalgia. He died in 2001. Maybe there’s another Adams that’s caused confusion?)
yeah, preoccupation with stupid twits posting on fires in LA got me the wrong Adams.
I feel like if Roger Linn had an intention to release another production of new Linn drum machines that maybe one thing but if he doesn’t, then let. Behringer make it and allow people who really want an affordable machine to get one.
People can already get an affordable drum machine– better than the original.
Gosh, people really seem to have not read the article.
@stub: 100%. It’s a pity that Behringer’s fan base is weirdly defensive & prone to asserting copium & won’t acknowledge valid points.
Notice how they also ignore:
– The fact that the GForce VST that Linn mentioned is far cheaper than the Behringer
– Nobody can tell whether a recording is an original Linn or a ripoff, the listener just hears nostalgic 80s drum sounds.
The affordability angle is beating a dead horse.
The artifacting is what people are after. And the controls and all the outs.
Wanting those features is fine, and can be achieved already. Notice that Linn’s article is effectively the first review of the LmDrum, which doesn’t bode well for it.
Alternatively – any decent LinnDrum sample set should or VST will have the artifices baked in.
Or use Audacity for dropping sample quality to 8bit 32.5kHz (in range for what the LinnDrum plays), if you want Linn’s vibe via DIY.
Any DAW offers better routing & flexibility than a physical drum machine, even in free/trial versions.
For hands-on, the TR8-S offer loads of outs & loads of control. OG Digitakts are going cheap, with Overbridge they’ve got 8 outs & are really intuitive. Both sell for similar prices to the B version 2nd hand & are built really well.
The LmDrum is trying to solve a problem that’s been solved previously.
If ethics ran the world, everything would be a perfect paradise and we would all live in utopia
human nature is not inclined towards “ethics”… thats why the human world is like this – thats why Behringer exists
its you… its your fault, humanity
Don’t give up on us.
We do have some (ethical) power, as consumers, as learners, as truth-tellers.
People will suckle at Uli’s teat regardless of his odious behavior, but we can at least pop the lights on.
You caught me. I did it!
I have to admit that I have, from time to time, suckled on Uli’s teat.
I didn’t taste like cream, but then neither was it sour milk.
I wanted a cheap analogue drum machine with individual outputs that I could try to modify myself with potentially breaking an expensive piece of equipment.
The 606 copy supplied that to me.
I also have the Mutable Instruments Braids copy.
I wouldn’t want to do too much Uli teat suckling though. Lest I acquire a permanent Uli milk mustache!
it’s funny how a Uli milk mustache is a bad thing. but Vangelis, Roger Linn, bad haircut guy? those milk mustaches are worn with glee.
I have been reliably informed that Behringer have been promoting fake news in order to hide the fact that both Eurorack and thus modular synthesis was invented by MakeNoise. They started a rumour that some pesky German called Doepfer had something to do with it and worse still claim that a guy caller Serge (yeah right!?) designed a module called DUSG that was ripped off into Maths (NOT A CLONE! I have 13!).
This sets a dangerous precedent.
Proof?
Roger Linn’s comment about the LmDrum being flawed & difficult to use reinforces my opinions about Behringer’s business model – not just lacking in vision but in confidence.
If only they’d drop the coat tail riding & get in to making original instruments they wouldn’t have to make weird, compromised instruments because of their market follower position.
The Behringer company ought to study the perspective of synth legends, not their circuits. Roger Linn is a class act.
Welcome to 2025 Roger. Everybody copies everybody. Not much you can do about it. As far as ethical… ? …. Fair game by todays standards.
Read the article. Roger Linn stated that he has also copied circuits. He was doing that before 2025, we’re living in his shadow (he co-invented midi). Not much you can do about it.
It’s always easy to see the people that leave ignorant, knee-jerk reactions without actually reading the article.
Welcome to 2025 Roger. Everybody copies everybody. Not much you can do about it. As far as ethical… ? …. Fair game by todays standards.
You can say that again!
yup, i wonder what all these folks are going on about. there are real injustices that require their crying time, but yeah an old drum machine is what’s important these day i guess. i wonder what the top-40 will be like next year… soooo important.
Does anyone copy Behringer though?
They haven’t done anything original worth copying.
Behringer wing series, neutron, proton, deepmind, etc.
What’s do you think is original about the neutron, proton, deepmind that would be worth any competitor copying?
They’re good value synths, and the most interesting thing that Behringer has done in the synth category, but they don’t bring anything original.
Really, the only thing that they’re are bringing to the market is their knockoff focus.
You could argue that their production processes are innovative, but other manufacturers are making gear that’s a lot more sophisticated for less money, so that argument doesn’t really fly.
i hear that bcr controller back in the day was pretty decent. but synth-wise no, you’re probably right
I use this machine on Google play store and I love it
The highlighted quotes are the least interesting imo. Mr Linn makes a coment about the fails of the operating system of the drum machine and even more interestingly about the low price it is sold at, (given the circuity cost). The latter feels like a monopoly tactic.
Linn’s entire comments are worth reading. He’s a brilliant dude, and he’s not attacking Behringer, he’s just dropping truth! Some people just can’t handle the truth.
What’s the truth? Yo, stop using hardware and use a vst? Old bit same as new bit? Yawn, we are here for the interactive hardware, not the sound itself which will always be better in a DAW but you know that’s not the point.
Dude, this is a poor quality troll attempt. They weren’t saying anything about hardware vs VST or sound quality. Try reading the articles & thinking about the writer’s perspective.
The truth is 3 minutes before you posted this you responded to me:
“The artifacting is what people are after.”
So you want it both ways (‘the people’ is clearly a projection of your preference). First its about the sound (the artifacts). Second its not about the sound. Good for you.
Thanks, now I get to live my alias.
Strange that with all these plugins and sample instruments also using illegal copies of the original machine, only this is now mentioned to be a problem….
Fake argument. Uli Behringer sent Roger Linn an LmDrum, and Roger Linn shared his thoughts on it.
If the build quality of the circuits is in-line with the rest of their drum machines (from Behringer), the master output will sound poorly-compressed, aka really terrible. Nothing to worry about! It’s a cheap company, with a cheap sound. I do like their patchbays, and their bcr2000 is now a great ZAQuencer in my rig.
Newest YT video demonstration says otherwise. Amazing how you managed to have an opinion on something you didn’t actually listen to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylh-_CoysdY
UX kind of sucks and is also good but hey Behringer always messes something up.
Not taking any sides here, but does not Bruce Forat now own the rights to Linn IP including the original EPROM data? I’m sure he has claimed this in the past.
I think Behringer should take a leaf out of G-Force’s book.
They produce VST clones of machines, but they work alongside the originators like Tom Oberheim, and he probably gets a small percentage to enjoy his retirement.
There is a big difference between continuing a legacy and blatant theft because of legal grey areas.
It should not be about what one can get away with, but what is morally right.
Behringer released a VST and nobody cared. VST space is crowded. I’ll take clunky but interactive hardware over VSTs any day.
Behringer focuses so hard on making knockoffs that they don’t have much experience at doing anything original, and they’re just not very good at it.
That’s why the company has give up on doing anything original in the synth space.
I suggest to read the full original post. GForce gets a mention and Linn gives a reason why he’s not endorsed that one either.
Most things in human society and especially the business world are not ethical. That’s the very simple and obvious point. It is to be expected… Why would this particular thing be any different?
Riddle me that, Mr Genius
You can just call me sir. ?
“Most things… are not ethical” That statement is far from obvious. — How about this? “Ethical issues are common.”
Company A gets an ethical score of 100%
Company B (let’s say) gets an ethical score of 0%
I ask you, a fellow Genius, how is that any different?
You know what false equivalency is.
The ethical issues go well beyond the copying/cloning.
As an aerospace engineer running a product development company, I’m always a little amused at the “ethics” question. In that market space, as long as you aren’t stealing and using another’s data (that you don’t own), its just fair game and business as usual. There are hundreds of firms who simply reverse engineer other’s products and perhaps gain certification to supply them as alternatives. Its just business. I think the synth industry seems a little naïve. If I were Roger Linn, I’d consider Behringer’s product as an homage to what he achieved and feel somewhat honored. Behringer didn’t steal anything. As composers, Bach and Vivaldi used each other’s musical ideas directly commonly to honor and pay respect to the other. There are much more important issues of IP theft that cross both legal and ethical boundaries to be concerned about – this isn’t one of them.
Do airplane parts contain copyrighted data?
What’s your point?
copyright is invalid if it’s not enforced. good luck trying to get royalties or whatever from all the companies that sampled/copied the linndrum samples.
You’ve confused copyright and trademark.
Trademarks expire if they are not used and protected. That’s why you see ‘TM’ on product labels.
The copyright on the LinnDrum samples lasts until we are all dead. But Behringer a big corporation with lawyers, and few instrument designers can afford to fight a billion dollar corporation.
yeah, i hear ya. and agree 100%. data center guy here.
electronic musicians though are a weird lot. they think all their stuff is original, and they make hero’s of their favorite product’s designers. oh well, EM is such a small part of the world, it doesn’t matter anyway.
I wouldn’t normally defend Behringer, but just as with Roland and Yamaha, if manufacturers have no intention to sell classics that people still lust after, they should always expect the free market to fill the void. Roger says he wants to focus on the future, which is the same thing Roland says about never re-releasing their old synths. Considering that the Linndrum is the same age as the synths Roland won’t make, fans have two options: Buy an exceedingly expensive 40+ year old instrument and hope for the best, or buy some kind of modern clone.
As to the comments about the operating system being confusing, I would point out that the OS in the Behringer drum machines actually does a *lot* more than the OS of the original Linndrum – Is it confusing or is it that he hasn’t spent enough time with it to be familiar? My guess is he would say the same thing about the MPC X, but that is not an MPC60 either.
All this aside: I will be interested to hear reports from reviewers as to whether the Behringer actually sounds like the Linn because it’s probably the most recognisable drum machine fingerprint in music history apart from the 808.
Here’s a video. It sounds pretty good but the UX is kind of clunky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ylh-_CoysdY
Where was the Linn Drum II. What happened with that?
This endlessly circular debate so reminds me of the old “MS Internet Explorer vs Netscape Navigator” bollocks. Too many moral athletes for my comfort…
How sad for you that ethical behaviour and standards ruffle your dirty feathers. And this is at all like the nonsensical and straw man bull-****.
do you hold your own government to the same standard as you do behringer? enough moralizing please.
lol. exactly. nothing to see here. bigger problems in the world.
Huh?
Internet Explorer and Netscape Navigator ripped my flesh. It took a few years and some tech advances for me to even be here to gripe about it. I once had a small button that stated “Welcome to Hell, here’s your copy of Win95.” If IE was all we had, I would have long ago dressed up a VW as a skunk & driven it through Microsoft’s front door. I’ll bet the judge would have let me off, too, hee hee……
i preferred Archie, Gopher, and Usenet tbh. the pre-WWW internet was a great place. heck, ARPAnet was better too. it was obvious it would descend into commercialism eventually. and here were are swiming in filth.
Some companies spend countless hours and exhaust significant resources to develop a new product. There’s also market research (i.e., “Who will buy it?”) Their (reasonable) expectation is to recoup costs and get a reasonable return on that investment by selling the products that they have designed.
Uli’s shortcut is to choose products that are popular, copy the designs– without improving them, even copying the mistakes. This has a negative impact that is often ignored by his defenders. Innovators are less likely to want to risk having their designs stolen, wasting all their market research and advertisement, etc.
People will say: “That just how it is done.” And roll out the usual Stratocaster arguments– they choose not to learn about all the nasty $#!+ that Uli has done and does. As long as they get their cheap gear, there’s “no problem” for them. Grim.
Look at the inside of a Linndrum and the inside of a Lmdrum. Turning existing designs into modern mass-production and efficient reproducable designs is called innovation. If it weren’t, we would never have personal computers and smartphones.
You don’t know anything about electrical engineering or product design. It’s not a black box, you can open it up and look inside and see for yourself where the innovation is.
You make a good point. It does take some know-how to convert an EXISTING design into something that can be mass produced. You call that ‘innovation’– and perhaps it is, of a certain kind.
I never said products were black boxes– you inferred that.
What I said is that companies would hesitate to innovate if they knew that tomorrow their design would be stolen and mass-produced. Since you are very knowledgable about electrical engineering and product design; perhaps you can tell us how you would feel if you designed something magnificent and someone stole your exact design and started selling it for a 1/4 of the price.
I’d suck it up and move on because that’s how business works. Companies quite literally buy their competitors products, dissemble them, learn from them, see what they can do better or not, and incorporate what they think is best for their design. It’s normal… look at all the objects in your house and google them and you will see there are 100s of variations of the same object out there. Are they unethical? And the same thing exists in the software world – hell we even have a special word for it to avoid copyright infringement:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean-room_design
At the end of the day, lmdrum/linndrum is just a bunch of circuits and code just like any other object in your house right this second.
Again, you’ve confused patents and copyrights.
Patents and clean room design are completely irrelevant here.
This is the ‘everyone-does-it argument’. It implies that all companies who do it do it equally as often, equally the same, and they are all equally ‘good/bad/whatever’.
Again, B-word’s ethical issues are not just related to the matter of cloning, stealing trademarks, etc.; but other behaviors, as well.
You can dismiss ANY bad behavior by saying: “It’s just a bunch of X and Y” Not an impressive argument. What’s worse, is you seem to be implying– their bad behavior is common, therefore I am forbidden to complain– lest I be labeled a moralizing, pearl-clutching, cork-sniffer.
There are things we might not want to know. But that doesn’t make them ‘nonsense’.
Musicians with no talent don’t care about intellectual property and copyright, but anybody that’s released their own music appreciates the fact that it’s protected by copyright.
I do not recomend Linn to sue Uli but I think Linn would have a good chance winning against Behringer as they stolen not just the sounds but also the looks of the original Linn.
Doubt it as there have been many more other violators before behringer and nothing was done about them. And they are so common it’s like calling your copy machine xerox.
Or calling any brand of facial tissue Kleenex.
False statement. No company would call their product a ‘xerox’, ‘kleenex’ or ‘google’, because those words are trademarked.
Those companies’ products were so innovative, when they were introduced, that the product name became the accepted name for the entire category of products.
Ah, yes. The moaning.
The ethics of charging 3000 for a product that can be replicated and sold for a fraction of the cost reveals the ethics of the one selling over priced product. People just to play with gear and are priced out. Behringer is also honouring relics and legends.
you know the research and development costs of R. Linn?
profit margin?
There is NO ethical problem with a musical equipment company charging a price that allows them to cover the costs of design, R & D, prototyping, manufacturing, documentation writing, advertising, marketing, tech support, warranty repair, and many other expenses, and can allow them to keep the lights on, pay their workers a fair wage, etc. etc. That is running a business. E.g., TA can charge whatever they want for their OP’s and other boutique products. There is NOTHING UNETHICAL about that.
Of course, any product could be replicated more cheaply than it is to design it from scratch. The company that made the original did the most expensive tasks.
By saying “Behringer is honouring relics and legends.” You reveal that you might be unaware of B-word’s actual ethical problems.
Let’s take the example of a Klon clone. Lots of companies have made them, B-word is making one. Not an issue. Not what we’re talking about.
People who defend B-word are defending their slightly-problematic behavior. People who criticize B-word are also considering all the disgusting stuff, too.
Are you referring to the “Luma-1”? This product is designed for those who want a high-quality, faithful replica of the original LM-1. Are you suggesting that it can be built and sold for less? Prove it.
Just because a product can be cheaply replicated doesn’t mean that boutique craftsmanship is overpriced. The value may be subjective but you get what you pay for.
Strange reasoning, copies are always much cheaper to produce! Specially in China with low wages and lots of cheap surplus parts floating around. Also Behringer makes almost no profits just to stay in business and draw in dollars to china and keep their machines going.
this is absurd.
once you let your creation out of the door, people are going to do whatever with it;
deal with it and stop playing the victim.
(shrug) Outrage is part of B’s business model. Threads about his doings fire up more responses than anything else. When we argue about Uli, he rubs his hands together and says “Excellent!” I feel sure that a certain number of people read the online bitch-slapping and think “I’m going to buy one of those and see what the fuss is about.”
If they get one that was assembled on a Wednesday, their chances of a decent result are better. People who own several Bs and like them got the Wednesday models. Just a theory, but who does their best on Mondays or Fridays? 😛
I hold some grudging admiration for the Wave. I loosely hope it delivers the goods like their X32 mixers. The I/O on the back says its serious business.
i doubt any CEO ever did that.
“Just a theory, but who does their best on Mondays or Fridays? ” – they’re going full factory automation; so much for those “workin for the weekend guys” you were worried about.
The ethical arguments are intriguing and bemusing. Thinking back 40 years, how ethical was it to design a machine that could, potentially, have led to many job losses amongst drummers?
OK, this is probably a fallacious argument, to some extent, but there was mass uproar amongst traditional musicians when synthesisers started becoming more popular and affordable, especially when they were pre-programmed with patches replicating the sounds of traditional instruments and even more so when sampling synth came onto the market.
Where do you draw the line on ethics?
To paraphrase what you said: “Drawing an ethical line is hard, so don’t. Go nuts.”
Thankfully, neither you nor anyone can tell me or anyone else where our line is to be drawn, much less whether or not we should draw one at all. I have a line. I’m proud of my line.
What happened to the LinnDrum II?
I’m a bit of an idealist. I will support the developer with the ideas. I guess I buy way less then a lot of people. I don’t want to have everything but use the things I own to it full potential and get creative with that. Other values are more important for me. Ethics, environment etc… ok I’m a hippy …
Im also a small developer, to be fair, I’m not relying om it.
But there are developers who are.
And yes iI would mind if someone would steel my idea and put it out there without the trouble I went through. But I guess a lot of people only look at their own …
.
Behringer Threads, the gift the keeps on giving! the givers of pain and delight!!
As a patent holder having approached companies like Moog, Yamaha, Casio, and now Roland about licensing US #9,024,168, I agree with Linn (whom I met at a past NAMM Show)
As a patent holder, I agree with Linn
i have 48 patents, i agree with behringer. shrug.
Patents hold back progress. Where would we be if the seat belt was patented? What’s the argument? Hey, I thought of that idea first so you’re not allowed to use it! It almost sounds like a child’s argument. No, I don’t care about your R&D costs or ethics, they are irrelevant especially when companies like Monsanto is patenting seeds of all things.